**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 19 16:00:02 2016

2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 *	Now talking on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 *	Topic for #4chancup is: New to IRC? Read: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=DfaEwRCx | Stream: http://www.hitbox.tv/the4chancup | Wiki: http://implyingrigged.info | Minor server glitch - whole lotta registered nicks goneski | Last time: /fit/ won thec up
2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 *	Topic for #4chancup set by f4r (Mon Mar 14 10:53:16 2016)
2016 Mär 19 16:00:02 *	anon_855 (Mibbit@AD3C0A8F.A5AE2A8A.23BF3206.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:00:07 *	DrBorisG sets mode +m on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:00:11 <MerkaST>	Hi where are the rules :DDD
2016 Mär 19 16:00:12 *	#4chancup :You need voice (+v) (#4chancup)
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2016 Mär 19 16:00:53 *	DrBorisG sets mode +N on #4chancup
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2016 Mär 19 16:04:53 <@Lear>	Try posting it here so people can see it. 
2016 Mär 19 16:05:06 *	JUSTICE4KOALA (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:05:28 <@Lear>	Boris just post it.
2016 Mär 19 16:05:39 *	JUSTICE4KOALA (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has left
2016 Mär 19 16:05:53 <@Lear>	http://pastebin.com/eNKDbEPC
2016 Mär 19 16:05:56 <@Lear>	Here we go.
2016 Mär 19 16:07:05 *	benislan (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:08:02 <@Lear>	Gib specifics basically. 
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2016 Mär 19 16:09:51 <@Lear>	Boris I think you shoould let the floodgates out on the IRC, I think people are capable of discussing things and here is a better place then the stream chat.
2016 Mär 19 16:10:08 <~DrBorisG>	ok
2016 Mär 19 16:10:14 *	DrBorisG sets mode -m on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:10:16 <[d]r[d]troit>	HI MOM
2016 Mär 19 16:10:17 <CollieBro>	 /p/ TEAM IN SPRING WHEN
2016 Mär 19 16:10:20 <Hessen>	The new BSG stats ill change nothing. I tested that when the question about changes came up before winter. Actual changes were more around 88/93/99
2016 Mär 19 16:10:29 <benislan>	please unlock nicks too DrBorisG 
2016 Mär 19 16:10:31 <Cyclohexane>	HI STREAM
2016 Mär 19 16:10:32 <iMaasie>	that went just fine the very first second
2016 Mär 19 16:10:33 <Two_Scoops>	oh god here we go
2016 Mär 19 16:10:34 <Feedback>	Hello world!
2016 Mär 19 16:10:35 *	DrBorisG sets mode -N on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:10:36 <benislan>	HI DAD
2016 Mär 19 16:10:38 <@Lear>	Now don't you guys be stupid about this.
2016 Mär 19 16:10:41 <Lazyturd>	ELLO
2016 Mär 19 16:10:42 *	benislan is now known as Superzak
2016 Mär 19 16:10:43 <Megabeastage>	this will go well
2016 Mär 19 16:10:44 <Soryuu>	*proves Lear wrong*
2016 Mär 19 16:10:45 <Heavenly_Pond>	Hi mom
2016 Mär 19 16:10:47 <Chance>	im gay
2016 Mär 19 16:10:47 <[d]r[d]troit>	Where do you think you are, Lear
2016 Mär 19 16:10:48 <Lazyturd>	HELLO STREAM
2016 Mär 19 16:10:55 <BGP>	wts stout shako for 2 refined
2016 Mär 19 16:10:57 <~DrBorisG>	note this is for rules discussion only right now
2016 Mär 19 16:10:59 <iMaasie>	[rampant shitposting in the distance]
2016 Mär 19 16:11:01 <buttbot>	REAL_4CCSPAN: Second Suggestion: Make Medal defenders a more valid choice. Boris expressed how its a dangerous idea to change stats by position.
2016 Mär 19 16:11:04 <SoCom>	!roll 1d100 check my benis
2016 Mär 19 16:11:05 <buttbot>	 SoCom rolls 33
2016 Mär 19 16:11:05 <buttbot>	Check 'em
2016 Mär 19 16:11:07 <CollieBro>	Honestly I'd rather go back to pes15, but I understand if this idea is shot down quick
2016 Mär 19 16:11:09 <%GB>	remove managers
2016 Mär 19 16:11:10 <Heavenly_Pond>	ay
2016 Mär 19 16:11:16 <SoCom>	ay
2016 Mär 19 16:11:20 *	DrBorisG sets mode +m on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:11:20 *	DrBorisG sets mode +N on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 16:11:37 <@Lear>	Well that went as well as expected.
2016 Mär 19 16:11:44 *	DrBorisG gives voice to spreach Rigtor Megabeastage
2016 Mär 19 16:11:51 *	DrBorisG gives voice to Lazyturd
2016 Mär 19 16:12:14 <+spreach>	ok so what i told Boris was lets have regular/bronze/silver/gold players like before
2016 Mär 19 16:12:19 *	bittenfeld (fritz@58BD7B71.C27C27ED.66EF15E.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:12:35 <+Rigtor>	yeah buffing players by position instead of global stats would lead to a new height abuse
2016 Mär 19 16:12:42 <+Megabeastage>	yep
2016 Mär 19 16:12:49 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, i can see that happening
2016 Mär 19 16:12:50 <+Megabeastage>	Buff players by stat I believe
2016 Mär 19 16:13:05 <+Megabeastage>	an example could be +5 in defensive stats to all players
2016 Mär 19 16:13:12 <+Lazyturd>	But would buffing global stats actually do anything?
2016 Mär 19 16:13:23 <+Megabeastage>	It would reduce spaghetti at least
2016 Mär 19 16:13:24 <+Rigtor>	I've tested buffing certain individual stats
2016 Mär 19 16:13:28 <+Rigtor>	It makes a difference
2016 Mär 19 16:13:33 *	DrBorisG gives voice to [d]r[d]troit
2016 Mär 19 16:13:36 <+Rigtor>	but I'm not sure of the exact level you'd have to change to make it completely effective
2016 Mär 19 16:13:50 <+Rigtor>	because I had small, noticeable changes, but it didn't like, fix the game really
2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <@Lear>	http://pastebin.com/LBi6DcDz
2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Actual idea: How about instead of only an A position, allow that or the option of two B positions?
2016 Mär 19 16:13:57 <@Lear>	 relevant pastebin.
2016 Mär 19 16:14:41 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Could open it up for more flexibility for tactics?
2016 Mär 19 16:14:43 <@Lear>	How would you see that being used Dtroit?
2016 Mär 19 16:14:43 <+Rigtor>	I've always found the idea of B positions interesting, but the question is what effect does it have on time
2016 Mär 19 16:14:53 <+Rigtor>	How much autistic live managing would be used with extra positions?
2016 Mär 19 16:15:02 <+Lazyturd>	What would that actually do though?
2016 Mär 19 16:15:02 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Well, like
2016 Mär 19 16:15:06 <+Rigtor>	That's my only concern with B position
2016 Mär 19 16:15:12 <+Lazyturd>	Like that would increse micro-managing
2016 Mär 19 16:15:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>	You could give a CMF B in CMF and a Wingmid
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2016 Mär 19 16:15:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>	and be able to play them in both positions without a big drop in stats
2016 Mär 19 16:15:36 *	DrBorisG gives voice to Chance
2016 Mär 19 16:15:43 <~DrBorisG>	cjamce says he's tested some A/B stuff
2016 Mär 19 16:15:44 <~DrBorisG>	go ahead
2016 Mär 19 16:15:51 <+[d]r[d]troit>	and I think that it wouldn't be a big time waster since it would be a lot of just positional stuff
2016 Mär 19 16:15:57 <+Chance>	Right, first off.
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2016 Mär 19 16:15:59 <+Rigtor>	for example if I I was allowing B positions, I would make it a rule that you can't change players positions by live managing, only change presets to one with the players already in a different position to stop autistic live managing.
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2016 Mär 19 16:16:05 <+Chance>	Under AI, B skill players are /balls/
2016 Mär 19 16:16:15 <+Chance>	Like, I honestly can't tell them from C players
2016 Mär 19 16:16:23 <+Chance>	they're embarassing
2016 Mär 19 16:16:41 <+Rigtor>	playing PES in a non 4cc way, i've figured kinda the same
2016 Mär 19 16:16:42 <+Megabeastage>	Well that removes that idea then
2016 Mär 19 16:16:49 <+Chance>	playing wingbacks that could also do midfield
2016 Mär 19 16:16:53 <+Rigtor>	not indistinguishable from C, but not good. It's like bieng out of position really.
2016 Mär 19 16:17:03 <+Chance>	the minute they moved into midfield, it was like they'd dropped two medals
2016 Mär 19 16:17:30 <+Rigtor>	Well B players aren't actually supposed to be naturals, they're supposed to be able to play there uncomfortably in an emergency 
2016 Mär 19 16:17:32 <+Chance>	If you want to run multiple positions, it would have to be A positions
2016 Mär 19 16:17:39 <+Rigtor>	the entire role exists to compensate for fatigue and injury in online PES in desperations
2016 Mär 19 16:17:41 <+Chance>	which is a interesting option
2016 Mär 19 16:17:56 <+Chance>	it would make fluid formations more interesting, because as of now
2016 Mär 19 16:18:00 <@Lear>	So what cases would additional A ranks be usable do you guys think?
2016 Mär 19 16:18:02 <+Chance>	being out of position is asking to die
2016 Mär 19 16:18:08 <+Lazyturd>	I dont really know
2016 Mär 19 16:18:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Multiple As could be a bit OP
2016 Mär 19 16:18:19 <+Lazyturd>	Would we give manlets more As?
2016 Mär 19 16:18:25 <+Chance>	an out of position player is fucked, and it makes fluid form much less useful
2016 Mär 19 16:19:05 <+Rigtor>	I'm not even sure that having manlets who can change positions is a particularly useful buff. People will still just play 3 179 players who are no different from a non height abuse 180 who usually plays
2016 Mär 19 16:19:12 <+Rigtor>	it might get turbo 165's to play
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2016 Mär 19 16:19:20 <+Rigtor>	but they'd probably just be backups to the 179s if they're blue or purple
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2016 Mär 19 16:20:53 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, multiple A positions would make fluid more "useable", i dont know if that would be a good thing or not
2016 Mär 19 16:20:58 <@Lear>	So much about PES has to be done by feel. 
2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+Chance>	doesn't happen, boris
2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Maybe allow multiple As, but you're then locked into always using fluid?
2016 Mär 19 16:21:13 <+Rigtor>	As much as people shit on keeperbabbies, they're entertaining. That's why I think that something like, for example
2016 Mär 19 16:21:17 <+Chance>	There is no magic bullet
2016 Mär 19 16:21:20 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Seems a bit too much to check, but a thought
2016 Mär 19 16:21:26 <+Chance>	certain tactics are good against others
2016 Mär 19 16:21:29 <+Rigtor>	i'd consider 10(7) 3-2 4(3) more entertaining than 10(7) 5-3 4(3)
2016 Mär 19 16:21:35 <+Rigtor>	which is what you get a lot on 16
2016 Mär 19 16:21:36 <+Chance>	but you can only stack the odds so high
2016 Mär 19 16:21:39 <+Lazyturd>	I think keepers should get a minor buff
2016 Mär 19 16:21:54 *	DrBorisG gives voice to Hessen
2016 Mär 19 16:22:05 <+Chance>	I know Rigtor did keeper stat buffing tests
2016 Mär 19 16:22:10 *	Gerb (Mibbit@6ECC43B2.F1FC5936.D3B2CA9E.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:22:15 <+Chance>	but that honestly seems viable atm
2016 Mär 19 16:22:19 <+Megabeastage>	It did alright somewhat
2016 Mär 19 16:22:28 <+[d]r[d]troit>	GKing seems less like the problem than the poor general defending
2016 Mär 19 16:22:31 <+Rigtor>	all 88 keepers made a difference. They saved the 'easy' shots ways more
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2016 Mär 19 16:22:40 <+Rigtor>	but there was still so many unstoppable perfect shots out of even a gold keepers hands
2016 Mär 19 16:22:46 <+Chance>	almost all the the top teams in Winter had very high defensive focus
2016 Mär 19 16:22:47 <+Rigtor>	that the goals per game hardly went down
2016 Mär 19 16:22:52 <+Lazyturd>	Rigtor, any percentage numbers compared to cup rules?
2016 Mär 19 16:22:58 <+Chance>	almost all have losts of backs, and ÈnayÈ defensive numberd
2016 Mär 19 16:23:03 <+Chance>	"many
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2016 Mär 19 16:23:09 <+Megabeastage>	could perhaps nerf the finishing of the golds then
2016 Mär 19 16:23:12 <+Rigtor>	I don't know the percentages from winter so I can't compare.
2016 Mär 19 16:23:16 <+Chance>	this is b/c of the weird shot/goal ratio right now
2016 Mär 19 16:23:21 <+Lazyturd>	Ah alright.
2016 Mär 19 16:23:23 <+Rigtor>	I know that there was things like an average of saves per game of just over 2 in my cup
2016 Mär 19 16:23:42 <+Rigtor>	and there was only 2 teams out of 42 played total that scored (every) shot on target
2016 Mär 19 16:24:14 <+[d]r[d]troit>	There was an idea I read a bit ago about lowering the shooting stats of gold strikers, this worth considering?
2016 Mär 19 16:24:19 <+Lazyturd>	But the core problem is that (in my opinon), is that goals happen way too easily.
2016 Mär 19 16:24:54 <+Rigtor>	you could cap finishing at 88 for everyone
2016 Mär 19 16:25:14 <+Rigtor>	i don't know how the effects of every other stat being 99 contributes to finishing
2016 Mär 19 16:25:23 <+Rigtor>	i'd have to test it
2016 Mär 19 16:25:29 *	bent (messi@1E2F358.7BBFD912.B241E85F.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:25:43 <+Chance>	I haven't tested defenive upgrades per say, but I've run a lot of medal defenders b/c memes.
2016 Mär 19 16:25:59 <@Lear>	People do need to recognize the balance between managers and the games being fun to watch from someone not involved.
2016 Mär 19 16:26:05 *	Q (Mibbit@9B5A770B.29D3F4A7.C05836FF.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:26:11 <+Rigtor>	Yeah. That's what i've been focusing on
2016 Mär 19 16:26:20 <+Rigtor>	you could easily make PES16 consistent
2016 Mär 19 16:26:22 <+spreach>	can't we give people a total amount of stats and let people distribute it however they want
2016 Mär 19 16:26:23 <+Rigtor>	but it'd be like 1.12
2016 Mär 19 16:26:25 <+Rigtor>	with keepers saving nohing
2016 Mär 19 16:26:26 <+Chance>	one effect they do have is they lessen the current need managers feel to have like 3 dmfs and 3 cmfs with "many" defenders on
2016 Mär 19 16:26:29 <+Hessen>	PES seems pretty balanced around even stat lines. I got the most reasonable scorelines with all 99s. The changes in the paste barely change anything. I got very good results starting with something around 88/94/99. There are still a fair amount of shots with those. I tested with a large amount of tactics too.
2016 Mär 19 16:26:31 <+spreach>	is that what boris is talking about
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2016 Mär 19 16:26:46 <+Chance>	because that's no longer as essential a part of the meta
2016 Mär 19 16:26:47 <+Lazyturd>	spreach, i really dont like that
2016 Mär 19 16:27:04 <+Rigtor>	yeah spreach that's an awful idea
2016 Mär 19 16:27:04 *	DrBorisG gives voice to bittenfeld
2016 Mär 19 16:27:08 <+Megabeastage>	nah, there's gonna be a staring 11 of 99
2016 Mär 19 16:27:10 <+Rigtor>	you'll get height abuse episode 2
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2016 Mär 19 16:27:29 <+spreach>	yeah you guys are right
2016 Mär 19 16:28:10 <+Hessen>	I got a fair amount of test results from before winter ill try to find them
2016 Mär 19 16:28:49 <+Lazyturd>	But honestly, i really think buffing keepers would be a step in the right direction.
2016 Mär 19 16:28:50 *	JohnnyBravo (JB@13BC78A0.AD7409F3.A55B51F3.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:28:52 <+Lazyturd>	Not by much
2016 Mär 19 16:29:07 <+bittenfeld>	Buffing stats makes more sense.
2016 Mär 19 16:29:15 <+Lazyturd>	Or that as well,
2016 Mär 19 16:29:40 *	Superzak (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has left
2016 Mär 19 16:29:43 *	Lear gives voice to JohnnyBravo
2016 Mär 19 16:29:55 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, thats a better idea, buffing specific players wouldnt be good in a long run
2016 Mär 19 16:29:58 <~DrBorisG>	http://pastebin.com/NMBJwkW9
2016 Mär 19 16:29:58 <+Rigtor>	can you post DB's pastebin in here
2016 Mär 19 16:29:59 *	Superzak (Superzak@a.comfy.cabin) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:30:02 <+Rigtor>	solid
2016 Mär 19 16:30:05 <+Lazyturd>	thanks.
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2016 Mär 19 16:32:01 <+Rigtor>	yeah positional boosts bug me because out of position players aren't as bad as they were long ago tbh
2016 Mär 19 16:32:06 *	DrBorisG gives voice to BGP
2016 Mär 19 16:32:57 <@Lear>	There will always be formations that are better.
2016 Mär 19 16:33:02 <+Rigtor>	When I tested, for every individual stat i boosted offensively, i boosted one defensively
2016 Mär 19 16:33:12 <@Lear>	Perfect balance is impossible as a goal.
2016 Mär 19 16:33:13 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Isn't this already a thing, though?
2016 Mär 19 16:33:17 <+Rigtor>	like, i increased acceleration, but then also increased ball winning to offset it
2016 Mär 19 16:33:24 <+JohnnyBravo>	I dislike any change that would effectively limit tactical options
2016 Mär 19 16:33:26 <+Lazyturd>	But is perfect balance something we're after?
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2016 Mär 19 16:33:31 <+Rigtor>	so players were still shut down, but occasionally there were great last man tackles, and there were great sprints to score a goal
2016 Mär 19 16:33:36 <+Rigtor>	so it was kinda balanced that way
2016 Mär 19 16:33:36 <+bittenfeld>	I agree with JB
2016 Mär 19 16:33:43 <+Megabeastage>	yeah
2016 Mär 19 16:33:46 <+Lazyturd>	I mean better and worse formations should always exist.
2016 Mär 19 16:34:01 <+[d]r[d]troit>	You really can't succeed to a huge degree with aingle-striker formations as-is , as an axample
2016 Mär 19 16:34:07 <+[d]r[d]troit>	*a single
2016 Mär 19 16:34:19 <+Rigtor>	You can't? News to me.
2016 Mär 19 16:34:21 <+BGP>	Position rating for players is based on specific stats. If you buff defensive stats, for instance, you will increase the rating for positions like CBs and DMFs, and the effectiveness of players in those position. Then you end up with teams playing something like four CBs, 4 DMFs and 2 strikers (exaggerated).
2016 Mär 19 16:34:23 <+bittenfeld>	It should be Rock-Paper-Scissors ideally. Some formations work better aganst another, some works worse.
2016 Mär 19 16:34:33 <+JohnnyBravo>	say if you nerf stats on strikers only for instance, people will play more AMFs and that just leads to a centralized meta where everyone does the same thing
2016 Mär 19 16:34:44 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Look at the ones in winter, they really didn't do very well
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2016 Mär 19 16:34:56 <+BGP>	that's why buffs need to be across the board. If you buff non-medals, you need to buff them in all positions. Not just defensive ones.
2016 Mär 19 16:35:01 *	DrBorisG gives voice to DescendingBear
2016 Mär 19 16:35:17 *	DrBorisG gives voice to CollieBro BASED_GOD
2016 Mär 19 16:35:26 <+Lazyturd>	But imo that wouldnt change much
2016 Mär 19 16:35:35 <+Lazyturd>	Would only lessen spagooter
2016 Mär 19 16:35:42 <+JohnnyBravo>	dtroit I only recall one 1-striker team in winter
2016 Mär 19 16:35:52 <+BGP>	Isnt that the point, Lazyturd?
2016 Mär 19 16:36:00 <+[d]r[d]troit>	and /a/ barely avoided wooden spoon
2016 Mär 19 16:36:16 <+Chance>	The rock-paper-scissors system Bitten is describing actually works right now
2016 Mär 19 16:36:24 <+Lazyturd>	I get that.
2016 Mär 19 16:36:28 <+JohnnyBravo>	I'm just saying, and /w/ won an invite on 4-4-1-1
2016 Mär 19 16:36:35 <+Rigtor>	yeah there was only like, one lone striker in winter
2016 Mär 19 16:36:42 <+Chance>	In PES 16, having more CBs than than opponent has forwards is a good idea
2016 Mär 19 16:36:47 <+Hessen>	http://pastebin.com/c8gZ1jb8 found my test results. These have been a a month or two ago so I dont remember the exact tactics, lots of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 but some other stuff too
2016 Mär 19 16:36:51 <+Chance>	an because almost everyone runs lb-cb-cb-rb
2016 Mär 19 16:36:53 <+Rigtor>	and also i believe several teams like /f/ and /n/ changed presets and ran lone striker with players out of position and won games
2016 Mär 19 16:36:56 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I wouldn't count Invitationals if only because people don't put their best foot foward with them
2016 Mär 19 16:36:57 <+Chance>	the lone striker gets fucked
2016 Mär 19 16:37:06 *	Lear gives voice to Tenko-G
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2016 Mär 19 16:37:09 <+Lazyturd>	But my main problem with PES16 is that goals happen too easily, and general stat buffs wouldnt do anything about it (need data on this)
2016 Mär 19 16:37:12 <+Chance>	but lone strikers actually do well vs. three man defenses
2016 Mär 19 16:37:22 <+Rigtor>	but then hardly anyone runs 3 man defences
2016 Mär 19 16:37:29 <+Rigtor>	4-4-2 is just too good right now tbh
2016 Mär 19 16:37:35 <+CollieBro>	ck did sort of well with 3 man defence
2016 Mär 19 16:37:40 <+Chance>	or if they're supported by heavy midfield attack, wide or narrow
2016 Mär 19 16:37:42 <+Rigtor>	there's minimal reason not to use 4-4-2 unless you play 4-3-3 for goals
2016 Mär 19 16:37:44 <+Rigtor>	it's a bit annoying
2016 Mär 19 16:37:52 <+Rigtor>	that's my one big concern with 16
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2016 Mär 19 16:37:56 <+Chance>	That's just it, Rigtor
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2016 Mär 19 16:38:03 <+Chance>	the 4-4-2 is the meta, because it's the meta
2016 Mär 19 16:38:06 <+Chance>	if that makes sense
2016 Mär 19 16:38:06 <+CollieBro>	I would support changes that made strange formations more viable desu
2016 Mär 19 16:38:12 <+Lazyturd>	Good point rigtor
2016 Mär 19 16:38:19 <+JohnnyBravo>	defensive boosts might help that, since you would be able to get away with fewer defenders
2016 Mär 19 16:38:22 <+Chance>	2 gold strikers are ideal against the 4 man bacjline almost everyone runs
2016 Mär 19 16:38:26 <+CollieBro>	I don't particularly like 4-4-2 but it was the only thing that really made sense in this game
2016 Mär 19 16:38:30 <+Lazyturd>	But how would we help "formation diversity"?
2016 Mär 19 16:38:34 <+Chance>	but it;s not broken, it can be countered with 3 CBs
2016 Mär 19 16:38:46 <+bittenfeld>	What is the limits on how complex the auto-atf check with regards to stat parameters?
2016 Mär 19 16:38:48 <+Chance>	it's just that no one is doing that
2016 Mär 19 16:39:02 <+Chance>	everyone is pidgeonholing themselves into a tactical corner
2016 Mär 19 16:39:06 <+JohnnyBravo>	bittenfeld from what I'm told there are none
2016 Mär 19 16:39:08 <+Chance>	with the 4-4-2
2016 Mär 19 16:39:11 <+Tenko-G>	Well since pretty much PES14 GKs only worth is that they have a hitbox that strikers can put their shots into. In PES16 strikers just learned that you score more by shooting past them. This is why we have more shot conversion.
2016 Mär 19 16:39:47 <+DescendingBear>	if all players should receive the buff to defensive stats, instead of just LB, RB and CB ones, I think that it would be better to raise: Ball Control, Def Prowess, Jump, Clearing, Reflexes. As buffed Ball Winning and Speed for midfielders and strikers would only help them to overcome defense in long run
2016 Mär 19 16:40:01 <+Tenko-G>	GKs are probably in 16 than 15 even.
2016 Mär 19 16:40:06 <+Tenko-G>	*better
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2016 Mär 19 16:40:15 <+Rigtor>	clearing and reflexes are keeper stats though?
2016 Mär 19 16:40:19 <+JohnnyBravo>	definitely gotta do it across the board like DB said
2016 Mär 19 16:40:24 <+Rigtor>	and jump doesn't need a boost
2016 Mär 19 16:40:28 <+Rigtor>	crosses are far from broken
2016 Mär 19 16:40:30 <+Rigtor>	and longball is shit
2016 Mär 19 16:40:33 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I think many agree that the problem isn't GKing but defending
2016 Mär 19 16:40:38 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, DB, that is a good point
2016 Mär 19 16:40:38 <+Chance>	crosses are good this year, yeah
2016 Mär 19 16:40:39 <+JohnnyBravo>	buff CB/LB/RB only -> people play 4 or 5 of those always -> less diversity
2016 Mär 19 16:40:42 <+Rigtor>	it's mostly def prowess and ball winning that need a boost more than anything
2016 Mär 19 16:40:59 <+BGP>	crosses are pretty much non-existent in PES16, unless you run longball (which isn't very viable).
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2016 Mär 19 16:41:28 <+Rigtor>	yeah
2016 Mär 19 16:41:31 <+bittenfeld>	You have to look at it systemtically. If too much goals is the problem you have to ask where it's coming from? Is it because the GK is letting too many long shots in? Is it because the defense is letting too many throughballs? etc.
2016 Mär 19 16:41:33 <+Rigtor>	players don't really cross unless you play C/L/W
2016 Mär 19 16:41:35 <+Rigtor>	and it's annoying
2016 Mär 19 16:41:46 <+Chance>	it is
2016 Mär 19 16:41:48 <+JohnnyBravo>	We scored a good percentage of our goals off crosses
2016 Mär 19 16:41:55 <+JohnnyBravo>	but you need specific cards to force them
2016 Mär 19 16:42:00 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, crosses are lethal
2016 Mär 19 16:42:00 <+Tenko-G>	Well number of shots is lower than in 15.
2016 Mär 19 16:42:01 <+Rigtor>	and attacking FBs
2016 Mär 19 16:42:02 <+CollieBro>	right now there's pretty much only two ways a goal chance is made: throughballs or general defensive spaghetti
2016 Mär 19 16:42:03 <+Chance>	Yeah, I noticed that with /fit/
2016 Mär 19 16:42:11 <+Rigtor>	>dat pinging of chance
2016 Mär 19 16:42:24 <+Chance>	The Heading Card is genuinely good, if you can get crossing to happen
2016 Mär 19 16:42:29 <+Chance>	as we saw with zyzz
2016 Mär 19 16:42:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>	It really is
2016 Mär 19 16:42:31 <+Rigtor>	heading is a fantastic card
2016 Mär 19 16:42:40 <+Megabeastage>	heading is amazing
2016 Mär 19 16:42:43 <+CollieBro>	yeah I guess that's right
2016 Mär 19 16:42:45 <+[d]r[d]troit>	which makes it a shame corners tend to be taken short for some reason
2016 Mär 19 16:42:47 <+BASED_GOD>	Buffing certain stats could be more OP than buffing certain positions. I'm not that familiar with PES, but if it is the same as most sports game, then you can make only one or a couple players more OP than even the 'so called' best players on the pitch.
2016 Mär 19 16:43:05 <+Rigtor>	personally, I hate that skillcards 1 through 6 are almost useless because dribbling is a shit. I want to see players pull out those sick goals you saw from Bert back in the day
2016 Mär 19 16:43:09 <+JohnnyBravo>	short corners are more dangerous tbh
2016 Mär 19 16:43:14 <+Rigtor>	but (not as common as in PES14 because they're cheesy)
2016 Mär 19 16:43:15 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, i really enjoy that heading is back
2016 Mär 19 16:43:23 <+CollieBro>	the sombrero card was great in 15
2016 Mär 19 16:43:34 <+Chance>	Hell Trick is good
2016 Mär 19 16:43:34 <+CollieBro>	but yeah in 16 they're hot garbage
2016 Mär 19 16:43:36 <+Chance>	*heel
2016 Mär 19 16:43:37 <+BGP>	dribbling got destroyed in PES15/16, because it was the only way to win a 1on1 in PES14 and people hated it.
2016 Mär 19 16:43:59 <+BASED_GOD>	Heading makes corners more lethal 
2016 Mär 19 16:44:04 <+DescendingBear>	isn't Jump the stat that gets tested against Heading when defender and striker clash for high ball? I thought that it could help defenders a little bit more
2016 Mär 19 16:44:12 <+JohnnyBravo>	it's not that dribbling cards don't work, it's that they never even trigger
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2016 Mär 19 16:44:16 <+Rigtor>	I tested increased dribbling on non medals and silvers and there was a noticeable difference to the way teams played, but yeah, there was no good runs
2016 Mär 19 16:44:18 <+Rigtor>	;_;7
2016 Mär 19 16:44:36 <+Chance>	I should go check /out.
2016 Mär 19 16:44:42 <+Chance>	*/out/ again
2016 Mär 19 16:44:51 <+Chance>	because their wingers were actually adept dribblers
2016 Mär 19 16:45:01 <+Megabeastage>	doesn't mazing run force a dribbling run?
2016 Mär 19 16:45:02 <+Chance>	I think Mazing Run is an important tool again
2016 Mär 19 16:45:04 <+bittenfeld>	You can force runs with fluid.
2016 Mär 19 16:45:08 <+Chance>	^
2016 Mär 19 16:45:09 <+Chance>	Aslo this
2016 Mär 19 16:45:19 <+Lazyturd>	Do they?
2016 Mär 19 16:45:25 <+Lazyturd>	I havent dabbled much with >fluid
2016 Mär 19 16:45:26 <+Tenko-G>	Anyone tested lower AI settings? I remember they affected teams in coach mode different than CPU teams in 13 or 14.
2016 Mär 19 16:45:32 <@Lear>	Does anyone have a link to it?
2016 Mär 19 16:45:34 <+Megabeastage>	ye, look at /out/'s wingers
2016 Mär 19 16:45:39 <+Rigtor>	I tested lower AI settings before
2016 Mär 19 16:45:42 <+Rigtor>	it was, uh
2016 Mär 19 16:45:43 <+JohnnyBravo>	I recall /asp/'s mazing run being a nuicance in tests
2016 Mär 19 16:45:49 <+Lazyturd>	I think lowering ai settings is a no-go zone
2016 Mär 19 16:45:51 <+Rigtor>	the shots and stats were exactly the same
2016 Mär 19 16:46:00 <+Hessen>	lower AI doesnt do much besides lower quality of play from my experience
2016 Mär 19 16:46:00 <+Rigtor>	but everyone was worse
2016 Mär 19 16:46:07 <+Rigtor>	shots came from non medals being ass
2016 Mär 19 16:46:09 <+Hessen>	just makes it more boring
2016 Mär 19 16:46:16 <+Rigtor>	it was just like the game before but with spaghetti
2016 Mär 19 16:46:17 <+bittenfeld>	dribbling is tied to card settings a 99 player with the wrong cards would just run into a defender.
2016 Mär 19 16:47:02 <+JohnnyBravo>	the other thing is with 4 cards investing in dribbling is sub-optimal
2016 Mär 19 16:47:08 <+Tenko-G>	Sounds great, who doesn't like spaghetti.
2016 Mär 19 16:47:08 <+JohnnyBravo>	when you could be getting heading, long range drive, etc
2016 Mär 19 16:47:19 <+BGP>	the problem with mazing run/trickster/incisive run is that people value other skills higher (like long range drive, first time shot, one touch pass, etc), so even if you give people more cards to play with, you'll just see more one touch pass, etc.
2016 Mär 19 16:47:29 <+BASED_GOD>	Jumping being tested against heading would make sense between defenders and attackers
2016 Mär 19 16:47:35 <+Rigtor>	the problem is there's only a select amount of skillcards that are good per position
2016 Mär 19 16:47:36 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, dribbling isnt a good option is 16 imo
2016 Mär 19 16:47:50 <+Lazyturd>	Like some people can make it worth, but as a general tactic it isnt working
2016 Mär 19 16:48:02 <+Rigtor>	like
2016 Mär 19 16:48:07 <+Rigtor>	on /u/ they had low lofted/weighted on everyone
2016 Mär 19 16:48:14 <+Rigtor>	and it worked because they're the most broken cards for midfielders
2016 Mär 19 16:48:24 <+Rigtor>	and if you upped cards, they'd just add one touch pass to everyone
2016 Mär 19 16:48:28 <+Rigtor>	and it would be even more broken
2016 Mär 19 16:48:31 <+Rigtor>	and nothing would change
2016 Mär 19 16:48:32 <+Hessen>	same thing happened with throughballs from 13 to 14 with ketchup bug
2016 Mär 19 16:49:06 <+bittenfeld>	I actually liked the global cap for cards before as opposed to the positional cap for cards. The only thing I would've changed is that you can put as many cards as you want on a player of your choice as long as you don't go over the global limit.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:07 *	Edgar (Edgar_Bobi@179CB85C.AA766DFB.591024FE.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 16:49:25 <+Chance>	Keeper buff.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:26 <+Lazyturd>	Increase general defending stats across for everyone.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:27 <+bittenfeld>	medal cap for cards i meant.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:29 <+Rigtor>	best 3 suggestions: nerfed finishing, boosted keepers, i don't have a 3rd
2016 Mär 19 16:49:30 <+Lazyturd>	And keeper buff.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:30 <+Tenko-G>	Fast low crosses have always been brokenly good in PES. So much that if you could prevent them from high crossing it would be a benefit.
2016 Mär 19 16:49:32 <+Chance>	It's the only change I would make atm
2016 Mär 19 16:49:48 <+Megabeastage>	I feel like a compression of stats centred around the silver players would be helpful
2016 Mär 19 16:49:57 <+BGP>	PMB ran a stream before winter where he played games with several different setup
2016 Mär 19 16:50:01 <+Megabeastage>	like a +4 for non medals and a -4 for medals
2016 Mär 19 16:50:13 <+BASED_GOD>	boost keepers
2016 Mär 19 16:50:16 <+Hessen>	lowering gap between medals.
2016 Mär 19 16:50:17 <+JohnnyBravo>	bitten while that seems nice, remember the reason we went with the current system is so that teams could use their whole roster and not just hte players with cards
2016 Mär 19 16:50:24 <+Rigtor>	i wish we should make wingers that aren't hole players who are basically wide AMFs more viable somehow tbh
2016 Mär 19 16:50:28 <+Chance>	Oh.
2016 Mär 19 16:50:31 <+Rigtor>	all you can do is hope it works on fluid
2016 Mär 19 16:50:34 <+Lazyturd>	I really dont know about lowering medal stat gaps
2016 Mär 19 16:50:35 <+DescendingBear>	with global card cap, everyone would rather use those on striker guys than defenders and make difference of strength even more visible
2016 Mär 19 16:50:36 <+JohnnyBravo>	gold wingers ;)
2016 Mär 19 16:50:43 <+Chance>	They're also implementing more A-rank positions for players
2016 Mär 19 16:50:44 <+Rigtor>	tfw no gold wingers
2016 Mär 19 16:50:48 <+Chance>	but that's mostly just me
2016 Mär 19 16:50:53 <+Chance>	and my boner for fluid formation
2016 Mär 19 16:51:10 <+Rigtor>	a #hotopinion is that there should never be a global limit on *anything* that you can distribute at your own discretion
2016 Mär 19 16:51:14 <+Rigtor>	it just asks to be abused
2016 Mär 19 16:51:25 <+CollieBro>	I wouldn't mind an extra A-rank as long as it isn't overdone
2016 Mär 19 16:51:28 <+bittenfeld>	But that's up to the person. You'll have to weigh in what's important. Also with random conditions then you have to think of card distributions more.
2016 Mär 19 16:51:30 <+BASED_GOD>	i would not recommend boosting certain stats, it could make the difference between medals and non-medals more extravagant
2016 Mär 19 16:51:51 <+Lazyturd>	But that would be done with the gap lowering as well
2016 Mär 19 16:51:53 <+CollieBro>	Like, don't give every player an extra A-rank because mid-match tactical autism will reach a new high
2016 Mär 19 16:52:05 <+Rigtor>	bitten while you would want to set things up like that
2016 Mär 19 16:52:09 <+Hessen>	compressing stats upwards is good i think. also 77/82/88 is less fun to watch compared to 88/94/99. Similar to lowering Ai setting
2016 Mär 19 16:52:17 <+JohnnyBravo>	an extra A-rank would be so nice, but it's more a pipe dream than anything
2016 Mär 19 16:52:23 <+Rigtor>	you'll get the cheeki cunts who'll play like
2016 Mär 19 16:52:38 <+Rigtor>	all their cards on their CMFs with best height and play /u/tier using the same setup on everyone
2016 Mär 19 16:52:43 <+Rigtor>	and you'd just get hardcore /u/ clones everywhere
2016 Mär 19 16:52:54 <+Rigtor>	you'd open the floor for more tactical diversity
2016 Mär 19 16:52:58 <+Rigtor>	but then
2016 Mär 19 16:53:02 <+BGP>	Compressing downward just leads to worse play. People enjoy seeing players be good, not seeing them fuck up. Nerfing stats down is a bad idea.
2016 Mär 19 16:53:08 <+Rigtor>	everyone would use the same shit anyway
2016 Mär 19 16:53:08 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah
2016 Mär 19 16:53:15 <+CollieBro>	Agreed
2016 Mär 19 16:53:25 <+bittenfeld>	But what cards you give the midfielders you take away cards from your forwards.
2016 Mär 19 16:53:27 <+Rigtor>	since 2012 i've been parroting a theory about singularity in PES the longer we go on in cups, and this would just make it even more hardcore.
2016 Mär 19 16:53:46 <+Lazyturd>	If we are to give As, they should be given to manlets
2016 Mär 19 16:53:48 <+CollieBro>	What, everybody using the same thing?
2016 Mär 19 16:53:56 <+DescendingBear>	with low stat differences between three player ranks, or with four ranks in total, those strength gaps can completely blur after applying nerf for lanklets
2016 Mär 19 16:54:08 <+JohnnyBravo>	speaking of manlets, 4/4 seems to make players worse, not better for some reason
2016 Mär 19 16:54:26 <+Rigtor>	in the past, come autumn everyone used the same shit. In Autumn 14 in was 4-2-2-2, in autumn 12 it was 4-3-3 etc etc
2016 Mär 19 16:54:27 <+CollieBro>	One thing that extra As would help with is preventing a team from getting shafted by the random conditioning
2016 Mär 19 16:54:34 <+Rigtor>	but now, it's getting to the point where everyone uses the same shit eeven earlier
2016 Mär 19 16:54:35 <+Megabeastage>	It does make them try shit they usually wouldn't with 4/4
2016 Mär 19 16:54:35 <+Rigtor>	like, by spring
2016 Mär 19 16:54:47 <+BGP>	Extra A positions for manlets I like, because it allows teams to be more fluid tactically.
2016 Mär 19 16:54:55 <+Rigtor>	which is becoming an issue because people start to realise that some things are just too good and there's not enough diversity in PES
2016 Mär 19 16:55:03 <+JohnnyBravo>	can we allow people to do 2/2 on manlets by choice tbh
2016 Mär 19 16:55:27 <+bittenfeld>	Gold manlet will be viable now. (and OP)
2016 Mär 19 16:55:29 <+BASED_GOD>	Yeah that's fine 
2016 Mär 19 16:55:40 <+Rigtor>	Yeah that's actually a problem. A 179cm gold with two A positions is OP
2016 Mär 19 16:55:46 <+Megabeastage>	where would you draw the line on that though?
2016 Mär 19 16:55:49 <+Rigtor>	it should be limited to extra A positions on non medals
2016 Mär 19 16:56:03 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, that makes sense
2016 Mär 19 16:56:08 <+Megabeastage>	like 175+ players are actually pretty OP if you play them well enough
2016 Mär 19 16:56:12 <+Lazyturd>	But would we give them to silver as well?
2016 Mär 19 16:56:12 <+BGP>	Also, everyone's going to gravitate towards the same formation by autumn because that's just what happens. It doesn't even have to be the best formation, but teams saw it work in winter/spring/summer, and so they use that, because they want to win.
2016 Mär 19 16:56:28 <+Rigtor>	Your medal being a manlet is perfectly viable. 5cm between 179 and 184cm doesn't make a difference
2016 Mär 19 16:56:28 <+Lazyturd>	Like we should limit the A ranks from gold players
2016 Mär 19 16:56:37 <+CollieBro>	Right
2016 Mär 19 16:56:46 <+CollieBro>	Don't give medals another a position, please
2016 Mär 19 16:56:49 <~DrBorisG>	what about silvers for example
2016 Mär 19 16:56:55 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Shortstacks has done well for us, if we were allowed an extra A on her, we could easily medal it and probably wreck shit
2016 Mär 19 16:56:59 <+bittenfeld>	Also extra A position should be limited to the position next to the registered one or opposite wing. So we won't have CB/CF A ranks.
2016 Mär 19 16:56:59 <+CollieBro>	eh, not convinced
2016 Mär 19 16:57:00 <+Lazyturd>	That i was saying bors
2016 Mär 19 16:57:04 <+Rigtor>	My issue with it is that, for example
2016 Mär 19 16:57:08 <+Megabeastage>	Silvers seem to be a slightly better 77 in 16
2016 Mär 19 16:57:09 <+Rigtor>	Everyone runs 2 gold CF's at this point
2016 Mär 19 16:57:13 <+JohnnyBravo>	that seems arbitrary bitten
2016 Mär 19 16:57:14 <+Megabeastage>	Golds are a massive jump
2016 Mär 19 16:57:30 <+Rigtor>	being able to move your silvers around effectively completely changes the game imo
2016 Mär 19 16:57:33 <+Rigtor>	idk if that's a good or bad thing
2016 Mär 19 16:57:54 <+Rigtor>	because your silvers are what win the game
2016 Mär 19 16:57:58 <+BGP>	I don't really see why not. If people are worried about 179cm gold medal players with two A positions, make it only 174cm players and below who get two A positions. The 179cm players would still have good weak foot stats.
2016 Mär 19 16:58:05 <+Lazyturd>	I think giving silver manlets the extra A rank would be worth a shot
2016 Mär 19 16:58:06 *	Lear gives voice to Marqod
2016 Mär 19 16:58:08 <+Rigtor>	when everyone has two gold CF's, the silvers are what matters most.
2016 Mär 19 16:58:14 <+Marqod>	Not gonna weigh in too much on tactics since I'm not really too well-versed in PES16, but we don't want to make things too complex mechanically either. That would be confusing for both newcomers and viewers alike.
2016 Mär 19 16:58:17 <+DescendingBear>	I really like that JB's idea about extra A for manlets, I can give it some tests on my machine through the next week
2016 Mär 19 16:58:28 <+CollieBro>	well, silvers have been pretty good at turning average teams into great teams
2016 Mär 19 16:58:30 <+Megabeastage>	Effective use of silvers are what wins the game
2016 Mär 19 16:58:40 <+Megabeastage>	it's why /fit/ and /out/ were so powerful
2016 Mär 19 16:58:43 <+CollieBro>	So sure, 2 A rank silvers may not be a terrible idea
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2016 Mär 19 16:58:55 <+JohnnyBravo>	the best argument for an extra A rank is that you're not locked into one formation
2016 Mär 19 16:58:58 <+Rigtor>	on golds, people are only really going to swap between like, CF, SS or AM which i guess is kinda useful, but with silvers, they'll go just about everywhere except fullbacks. Again, not sure if that's a good or bad thing
2016 Mär 19 16:59:09 <+Rigtor>	I still think that for the sake of not taking forever live managing, you can only swap A positions by swapping presets
2016 Mär 19 16:59:17 <+Rigtor>	because it encourages preset changes to different tactics
2016 Mär 19 16:59:18 <+Lazyturd>	And it would make >fluid a bit better
2016 Mär 19 16:59:19 <+Rigtor>	and not autistic live managing
2016 Mär 19 16:59:26 <+Rigtor>	and it lets you use fluid beter
2016 Mär 19 16:59:32 <+[d]r[d]troit>	yeah, extra A's would make fluid a LOT more viable 
2016 Mär 19 16:59:46 <+JohnnyBravo>	yeah dtroit, in default PES fluid switches formations all the time
2016 Mär 19 16:59:51 <+JohnnyBravo>	like LMF to LWF on the attack
2016 Mär 19 16:59:55 <+bittenfeld>	Also you're focusing more on the offensive aspect of extra A/B ranks. I find that these extra ranks help more defensively at least with fluid.
2016 Mär 19 17:00:04 <+Hessen>	Emotions do next to nothing
2016 Mär 19 17:00:15 <+Hessen>	Theyre balanced around long cups and not exhibition matches
2016 Mär 19 17:00:15 <+CollieBro>	I don't think we're considering B ranks still, are we?
2016 Mär 19 17:00:19 <+Lazyturd>	Havent tried em.
2016 Mär 19 17:00:21 <~DrBorisG>	not really
2016 Mär 19 17:00:24 <+CollieBro>	I thought it was settled they're not good
2016 Mär 19 17:00:25 <+Lazyturd>	B ranks are shite
2016 Mär 19 17:00:26 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I dont think so, CollieBro
2016 Mär 19 17:00:28 <+Rigtor>	bitten, here'st the thing
2016 Mär 19 17:00:28 <~DrBorisG>	rigtor and chance said they were ass
2016 Mär 19 17:00:32 <+JohnnyBravo>	I never thought emotions actually did anything either
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2016 Mär 19 17:00:38 <+Rigtor>	like, 3 managers use defensive tactics
2016 Mär 19 17:00:40 <+JohnnyBravo>	it's just the condition boost if you score
2016 Mär 19 17:00:44 <+bittenfeld>	B rannks may be shit offensivley but not defensively.
2016 Mär 19 17:00:46 <+Rigtor>	you have to talk about the offensive aspect because that's what 90% of managers will do
2016 Mär 19 17:00:47 <+BGP>	I tested emotions off/on in PES16. The only difference I noticed was that player condition no longer increased with emotions on when a player performed very well.
2016 Mär 19 17:00:56 <+DescendingBear>	anyone would like to test that global buff to ball control, def prowess, clearing and reflexes?
2016 Mär 19 17:00:57 <+BGP>	with emotions OFF that is
2016 Mär 19 17:01:03 <+bittenfeld>	Bring back bus parking.
2016 Mär 19 17:01:14 <+Lazyturd>	said no one ever
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2016 Mär 19 17:01:18 <+BGP>	in PES15 conditions still increased whether emotions were on or off, which leads me think it was just bugged
2016 Mär 19 17:01:19 <+bittenfeld>	As a viable option.
2016 Mär 19 17:01:22 <+CollieBro>	I would really like to see changes that make a slow, frustrating the opposition playstyle be more viable
2016 Mär 19 17:01:33 <+bittenfeld>	^
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2016 Mär 19 17:01:43 <+Rigtor>	DB, clearing and reflexes are goalkeeper stats. A global boost does nothing
2016 Mär 19 17:01:45 <+Rigtor>	unless you want to boost keepers
2016 Mär 19 17:01:51 <+Rigtor>	in which case i've already tested those 4 stats being globally boosted
2016 Mär 19 17:01:55 <+Rigtor>	and posted the pastebin earlier
2016 Mär 19 17:01:57 <+Rigtor>	in 4ccg
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2016 Mär 19 17:02:07 <+JohnnyBravo>	I do think PES is just built to favor offense
2016 Mär 19 17:02:13 *	RigtorMoreLikeNigtor (Denko@5EE456A6.E4AE5A01.508D5228.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 17:02:21 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, a global stat buff across all stats does next to nothing.
2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+DescendingBear>	got it, thanks Rigtor
2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+CollieBro>	yeah because murricans like more goals
2016 Mär 19 17:02:23 <+Rigtor>	yeah. real life competitive PES games always end 4-3 in barca vs bayern episode 300
2016 Mär 19 17:02:24 <+[d]r[d]troit>	the Defensive AI in and of itself seems to be ill-suit for our purpose at best
2016 Mär 19 17:02:33 <+bittenfeld>	Just my wisfhul thinking anyway. I think enginewise Pes is geared to goals.
2016 Mär 19 17:02:37 <%GB>	Give the people goals! [/rabble]
2016 Mär 19 17:02:38 <+Lazyturd>	If we are to do a global sta buff, it needs to be on specific stats.
2016 Mär 19 17:02:48 <+[d]r[d]troit>	there's weird things liek the defenders just randomly splitting at the middle even playing compactly
2016 Mär 19 17:03:08 <+JohnnyBravo>	yeah low compactness is unviable
2016 Mär 19 17:03:12 <+Rigtor>	#bringbackpes13
2016 Mär 19 17:03:19 <+Lazyturd>	 ^
2016 Mär 19 17:03:23 <+Megabeastage>	nu
2016 Mär 19 17:03:26 <+Hessen>	#bringbackthroghballabuse
2016 Mär 19 17:03:27 <+Rigtor>	low how?
2016 Mär 19 17:03:30 <+BGP>	Possession is not particularly viable because there are not that many shots in PES16, and with possession play there are even fewer. Also 77s suck at passing, so you just lose the ball on your half of the field more often. I imagine it's a good style to play when you're ahead and just want to shut out the game, though.
2016 Mär 19 17:03:31 <+Rigtor>	like, 2 or 3 is kinda shit
2016 Mär 19 17:03:33 <+Rigtor>	but 4 or 5 is fine
2016 Mär 19 17:03:35 <+CollieBro>	#bringbackpes15
2016 Mär 19 17:03:36 <+JohnnyBravo>	doesn't help that fucking everyone plays through the middle though
2016 Mär 19 17:03:37 <%GB>	#removemanagers
2016 Mär 19 17:03:42 <+CollieBro>	I still think with a couple changes pes15 could be made fresh again
2016 Mär 19 17:03:50 <+Rigtor>	tbh PES13 wasn't even throughball abuse. That was the PESJP patch
2016 Mär 19 17:03:55 <+Megabeastage>	Actually BGP, I've been able to run a 4-3-3 possession that works quite well
2016 Mär 19 17:03:59 <+JohnnyBravo>	ehhh bgp we won a pair of knockout games on poss, it's not dead, you just have to find spaces for it
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2016 Mär 19 17:04:06 <+bittenfeld>	I disagree with possession being unviable. It only is because of the goal to save ratio.
2016 Mär 19 17:04:07 <+CollieBro>	^^
2016 Mär 19 17:04:08 <+Rigtor>	possession is my waifu
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2016 Mär 19 17:04:17 <+[d]r[d]troit>	posession isn't bad at all
2016 Mär 19 17:04:17 <+Megabeastage>	it works but only in less ways than counter
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2016 Mär 19 17:04:23 <+Rigtor>	^
2016 Mär 19 17:04:31 <+Lazyturd>	Keeper buffs, Manlets extra A:s to silver and below, and global defensive stat buffs.
2016 Mär 19 17:04:34 <+Rigtor>	4-4-2 possession attacking FBs (mm)
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2016 Mär 19 17:04:38 <+Marqod>	I'd really like to see what would happen if player stats are closer together, if GKs are buffed and if manlets are buffed.
2016 Mär 19 17:04:46 <+[d]r[d]troit>	it's bad against specific team setups like /u/ where they rule the midfield, but it's not unusable
2016 Mär 19 17:04:51 <+Hessen>	Shortening skill gaps upwards, extra A for manlets and keeper only buffs are the most popular i think
2016 Mär 19 17:04:56 <+Rigtor>	here's a really #hotopinion nobody has suggested
2016 Mär 19 17:05:06 <@Lear>	I agree with Marqod those are the three I'd like to see more of.
2016 Mär 19 17:05:09 <+Rigtor>	people say golds are too good
2016 Mär 19 17:05:13 <+BGP>	Compress stats upwards, extra A positions for manlets.
2016 Mär 19 17:05:21 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Agreed with Marqod/Hessen
2016 Mär 19 17:05:23 <+Rigtor>	so why not run GGGG with all 80 non medals and all 90 golds
2016 Mär 19 17:05:25 <+Rigtor>	or at least test it
2016 Mär 19 17:05:30 <+Rigtor>	then everyone is better but golds are less broken
2016 Mär 19 17:05:34 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, Marqod as a great point.
2016 Mär 19 17:05:35 <+Rigtor>	h o t o p i n i o n s
2016 Mär 19 17:05:41 <+CollieBro>	that's actually not a terrible idea
2016 Mär 19 17:05:41 <+BASED_GOD>	Individual stat buff v Overall Position buffs
2016 Mär 19 17:05:44 <+Lazyturd>	has*
2016 Mär 19 17:05:52 <+Lazyturd>	Fuck my typoing
2016 Mär 19 17:05:52 <+BASED_GOD>	and Goal Keeper Stat buffs 
2016 Mär 19 17:06:14 <+DescendingBear>	Rigtor, could you list stats that would benfit defending? ball control, def prowess, ball winning, speed, body balance? something else?
2016 Mär 19 17:06:28 <+Rigtor>	I'd have to talk to tenk, vaughan and HT about it but the wrassling cup is next week and maybe that could be used to test a different medal structure
2016 Mär 19 17:06:52 <+Megabeastage>	jump is the defending stat against heading I think
2016 Mär 19 17:06:58 <+Rigtor>	DB if you look in the editor, every stat is ordered by what they're used for
2016 Mär 19 17:06:58 <+bittenfeld>	I'd go with the top 3
2016 Mär 19 17:07:00 <+bittenfeld>	I'd go with the top 2
2016 Mär 19 17:07:02 <+bittenfeld>	I meant
2016 Mär 19 17:07:15 <+BGP>	PMB tested some games with 80/90/99 on his channel before winter. You have to watch out with buffing non-golds too much, or the game turns into box to box pinball.
2016 Mär 19 17:07:18 <+Rigtor>	in order of attack, passing, defensive, physical, keeper
2016 Mär 19 17:07:25 <+Marqod>	Tbh, putting stats closer together will automatically also make defenders closer to golds in skill, essentially buffing them.
2016 Mär 19 17:07:29 <+Rigtor>	i can't list them all off the top of my hea
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2016 Mär 19 17:07:35 <+Rigtor>	i believe it's heading, defensive prowess and ball winning
2016 Mär 19 17:07:59 <+Hessen>	80/90/99 is barely a change
2016 Mär 19 17:08:01 <+BGP>	Marqod, that's why I prefer putting stats closer together. It buffs defense without trying to turn keepers into superman or whatever
2016 Mär 19 17:08:02 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Can I ask why there's no consideration for a stat shift fownwards, like 77/84/90 o some such?
2016 Mär 19 17:08:10 <+Lazyturd>	Nope
2016 Mär 19 17:08:10 <+[d]r[d]troit>	just out of curiosity
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2016 Mär 19 17:08:17 <+CollieBro>	we want to see players play well
2016 Mär 19 17:08:19 <+Lazyturd>	That wouldnt make sense imo
2016 Mär 19 17:08:22 <+Rigtor>	silver keepers aren't supermen. I've tested it
2016 Mär 19 17:08:22 <+JohnnyBravo>	we touched on it, players just play worse
2016 Mär 19 17:08:25 <+CollieBro>	not more spaghetti
2016 Mär 19 17:08:30 <+Lazyturd>	And seeing not shite players is what people want
2016 Mär 19 17:08:33 <+Megabeastage>	would want better play, than more spaghetti
2016 Mär 19 17:08:37 <+Rigtor>	In 21 games, so 42 keeper performances
2016 Mär 19 17:08:43 <+Rigtor>	the most any keeper got was 7 saves
2016 Mär 19 17:08:44 <+bittenfeld>	Just tests with buffing GK stats
2016 Mär 19 17:08:45 <+Rigtor>	and that happened once
2016 Mär 19 17:08:46 <+[d]r[d]troit>	alright, just checkin'
2016 Mär 19 17:08:55 <+CollieBro>	no problem
2016 Mär 19 17:09:00 <+Rigtor>	the next highest was a single 6 that happened in the same game
2016 Mär 19 17:09:02 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah its ok
2016 Mär 19 17:09:08 <+Hessen>	dtroit, stat shift downward is like stat shift upward but more boring to watch
2016 Mär 19 17:09:09 <+Lazyturd>	This is a open forum at the moment.
2016 Mär 19 17:09:14 <+DescendingBear>	maybe because 90 "gold" player that is over 200cm tall would get nerfed to 85, making him effectively silver and ruining height aboos strategies
2016 Mär 19 17:09:14 <+Rigtor>	so there was only one game it went over 5 saves for silver keepers
2016 Mär 19 17:09:28 <+Rigtor>	well DB nobody is making height abuse OP right now
2016 Mär 19 17:09:41 <+Rigtor>	like, /u/ used it for keepers only really
2016 Mär 19 17:09:46 <+Rigtor>	and /asp/ wasn't that great with it
2016 Mär 19 17:09:47 <+BGP>	I'm not saying 80/90/99 is the answer, I just said someone tested it. You have to look at how the game plays. You need to buff with baby steps, otherwise you swing the balance too far and the game just becomes a pinball simulator.
2016 Mär 19 17:10:09 <+Lazyturd>	Hey, you guys want a #Hotopinion?
2016 Mär 19 17:10:20 <+Rigtor>	i love a cheeky #hotopinion lad
2016 Mär 19 17:10:21 <+Rigtor>	hit me
2016 Mär 19 17:10:22 <+Megabeastage>	no
2016 Mär 19 17:10:25 <+Hessen>	80/90/99 changes next to nothing. Its a stat change by 3 and 2.
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2016 Mär 19 17:10:43 <+JohnnyBravo>	any stat change under 6 or so feels placebo-ish
2016 Mär 19 17:10:47 <+Rigtor>	^
2016 Mär 19 17:10:49 <+Hessen>	^
2016 Mär 19 17:10:58 <+Rigtor>	i changed all mine by 11, from 77 to 88 to 99
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2016 Mär 19 17:11:04 <+Lazyturd>	First of all, make all GKs gold(or above).
2016 Mär 19 17:11:10 <+Rigtor>	>(or above)
2016 Mär 19 17:11:11 <+Rigtor>	>above 99
2016 Mär 19 17:11:12 <+Rigtor>	wew lad
2016 Mär 19 17:11:13 <+Rigtor>	w e w l a d 
2016 Mär 19 17:11:15 <~DrBorisG>	>above 99
2016 Mär 19 17:11:16 <+Lazyturd>	Oh fugg
2016 Mär 19 17:11:18 <+Megabeastage>	>99+
2016 Mär 19 17:11:18 <+Lazyturd>	My bad
2016 Mär 19 17:11:20 <+Lazyturd>	>99+
2016 Mär 19 17:11:24 <+Lazyturd>	>shitty of me
2016 Mär 19 17:11:30 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Plug in the gameshark, we're makign golds 120
2016 Mär 19 17:11:31 <+bittenfeld>	Platinum
2016 Mär 19 17:11:32 <+bittenfeld>	Mad
2016 Mär 19 17:11:37 <+JohnnyBravo>	NINETY NINE PLUS
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2016 Mär 19 17:11:48 <+Rigtor>	WHEN THIS KEEPER HIS 108 YOU'RE GONNA SEE SOME SHIT
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2016 Mär 19 17:11:57 <+Hessen>	Fucking mulp with 99+ abuse
2016 Mär 19 17:12:02 <~DrBorisG>	anyway
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2016 Mär 19 17:12:07 <~DrBorisG>	I think silver GKs is a good place to start
2016 Mär 19 17:12:07 <+BGP>	again, not saying 80/90/99 is the answer. It's an example. You need to watch it to judge it. If it's too little, just buff it some more. The thing I'm saying is don't take it too far by going straight to 88/99/99.
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2016 Mär 19 17:12:10 <+Lazyturd>	I just made a fucking meme didnt i?
2016 Mär 19 17:12:15 <+Megabeastage>	no
2016 Mär 19 17:12:15 <+BASED_GOD>	You can have this keeper at only 9.99+
2016 Mär 19 17:12:19 <+DescendingBear>	should I test double A for manlets along with GK buff and def buff, or each of those changes should be tested separatedly?
2016 Mär 19 17:12:19 <+Megabeastage>	you called it a meme
2016 Mär 19 17:12:20 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Yep, feel proud
2016 Mär 19 17:12:22 *	Marquis (Mibbit@F58F1343.27D42F83.EAB55015.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 17:12:23 <+Megabeastage>	and now it's ded
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2016 Mär 19 17:12:33 <+BGP>	If you test on 88/99/99, your final stats will look alright, but the games will be boring to watch because it's just pinball.
2016 Mär 19 17:12:39 <+Rigtor>	^
2016 Mär 19 17:12:48 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Test them seperatelyu, I'd say, then if they both work you can merge them for further testing
2016 Mär 19 17:12:53 <+Lazyturd>	But yeah, i think gold keepers for every team should be tried
2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <+Lazyturd>	While that seems...extreme i think its worth a shot
2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <+Rigtor>	I already know exactly how gold keepers will play
2016 Mär 19 17:13:05 <~DrBorisG>	yeah, I'd see how the manlet buff + GK does against current rules
2016 Mär 19 17:13:09 <+JohnnyBravo>	definitely test the GK buff on it's own since that seems to be the more pressing of the two issues
2016 Mär 19 17:13:23 <+Rigtor>	gold keepers would save every single easy shot but you'd still get the same amount of goals
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2016 Mär 19 17:13:30 <+[d]r[d]troit>	 <bent> Just for the record, we tested putting all stats on 127 and it didn't do anything. it's capped ;_;
2016 Mär 19 17:13:33 <+Rigtor>	as not even a gold can save a 99 striker's perfect shot in the corner
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2016 Mär 19 17:13:43 <+Rigtor>	and those happen too often
2016 Mär 19 17:13:46 <+Rigtor>	which is why goals ae so high
2016 Mär 19 17:13:47 <+Megabeastage>	actually yeah, there are some disgustingly unlikely shots that go in in 16
2016 Mär 19 17:14:03 <+JohnnyBravo>	yeah they can score from little windows of space outside the box
2016 Mär 19 17:14:07 <+bittenfeld>	Also one of the GK buff tests should involve no cards.
2016 Mär 19 17:14:09 <+Rigtor>	like, i have a webm of a 88 keeper in action, let me pull it up
2016 Mär 19 17:14:14 <+Lazyturd>	Rigtor, that would be my poinmt though
2016 Mär 19 17:14:19 <+Marqod>	What about 85/90/95 for stats?
2016 Mär 19 17:14:25 <+DescendingBear>	okay, I have to go now, thanks for discussion and nice ideas, I'll report once I'll have some results
2016 Mär 19 17:14:28 <+Lazyturd>	Those easy shots are converted way too many times
2016 Mär 19 17:14:32 <+Rigtor>	this is an 88 keeper http://webmshare.com/OMJLB
2016 Mär 19 17:14:49 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Good luck DescendingBear
2016 Mär 19 17:14:59 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, take care.
2016 Mär 19 17:15:09 <+Megabeastage>	see ya
2016 Mär 19 17:15:12 <+BGP>	IMO we don't need huge changes. Winter was alright. We just need some tweaking. I don't think we're going to get anywhere unless we've got some results to actually talk about (keeper buffs, mostly). IMO, keeper buffs by themselves are ueless, because most goals happen because of terrible defending.
2016 Mär 19 17:15:33 <+bittenfeld>	that's an unfair webm. the test would be direct shots or 1-on-1s.
2016 Mär 19 17:15:39 <~DrBorisG>	yeah the issue is we have a lot of proposed stat change systems
2016 Mär 19 17:15:48 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, we should do minor tweaks if something is to be done.
2016 Mär 19 17:15:49 <~DrBorisG>	where obviously we can't go with all of them
2016 Mär 19 17:15:58 <+Rigtor>	the problem is not enough people are actually testing and presenting data tbh
2016 Mär 19 17:16:07 <+Hessen>	I'll probably do a test cup, I hope others do to
2016 Mär 19 17:16:12 <+Rigtor>	like, what, 4 or 5 people came in with data today?
2016 Mär 19 17:16:13 <~DrBorisG>	lel welcome to my last 4 years
2016 Mär 19 17:16:18 <~DrBorisG>	nobody tests
2016 Mär 19 17:16:20 <+Lazyturd>	And while my gold keeper suggestion isnt a minor tweak per say, it should be a platform for future testing.
2016 Mär 19 17:16:26 <+Megabeastage>	Brois, delegate a few of us to test lel
2016 Mär 19 17:16:35 <+Marqod>	Going afk for a while now, hopefully I'll be back before the end of discussions.
2016 Mär 19 17:16:37 <~DrBorisG>	I can't force people to
2016 Mär 19 17:16:37 <+BGP>	someone needs to stream tests, because results are useless unless you see how the game plays.
2016 Mär 19 17:16:41 <+Rigtor>	nigga i'm from the days where GB made changes without consulting anyone other than himself don't you backtalk me about people not testing changes
2016 Mär 19 17:16:51 <+bittenfeld>	just put the tests up on klaxa
2016 Mär 19 17:16:54 <+bittenfeld>	or something
2016 Mär 19 17:16:54 <+BGP>	you cant judge how effective changes are based off stat screens
2016 Mär 19 17:17:00 <+[d]r[d]troit>	How can we test changes if Test is still dead?
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2016 Mär 19 17:17:38 <~DrBorisG>	rip test I cri everytim
2016 Mär 19 17:17:38 <+Rigtor>	is test still dead?
2016 Mär 19 17:17:39 <+Hessen>	Is he tho? Check the twitter first dtroid
2016 Mär 19 17:17:57 <+Megabeastage>	#pray4test
2016 Mär 19 17:17:58 <+Rigtor>	oh yeah dtroit you're here
2016 Mär 19 17:18:00 <+Rigtor>	for something i mentioned earlier
2016 Mär 19 17:18:05 <+Lazyturd>	rippi test
2016 Mär 19 17:18:08 <+Hessen>	https://twitter.com/isteststilldead yep, hes still dead
2016 Mär 19 17:18:09 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I'd offer to test, but I wouldn't know what to look for
2016 Mär 19 17:18:09 <+Rigtor>	what do you think about testing a different medal format for the wrassle cup next week
2016 Mär 19 17:18:13 <+Lazyturd>	barely even knew ye
2016 Mär 19 17:18:17 <+Rigtor>	seeing as it's just a big meme
2016 Mär 19 17:18:19 <+Rigtor>	with fake teams
2016 Mär 19 17:18:24 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I'd be for that, it'd be a good way to make it useful instead of just fun
2016 Mär 19 17:18:55 <+Rigtor>	well Boris the wrassle cup is literally next week
2016 Mär 19 17:18:55 <+Lazyturd>	The problem with medal change is that we need DATA for that
2016 Mär 19 17:18:57 <+Rigtor>	so it's in the right timeframe
2016 Mär 19 17:19:03 <+Lazyturd>	And as boris said, were on a clock.
2016 Mär 19 17:19:06 <+BGP>	Babysteps, honestly. Winter wasn't that bad, considering how terrible we thought it was going to be.
2016 Mär 19 17:19:26 <+Tenko-G>	It wasn't as crazy as unfriendlies.
2016 Mär 19 17:19:39 <+Megabeastage>	unfriendlies was quite broken
2016 Mär 19 17:20:13 <+Rigtor>	i didn't post the stats publically but I made 16 fake teams/historic fake teams in PES16 
2016 Mär 19 17:20:18 <+Rigtor>	and when people didn't have meme tactics
2016 Mär 19 17:20:19 <+Hessen>	I gave f4r some tests too, got about the same results as NED
2016 Mär 19 17:20:20 <+Rigtor>	aka my teams
2016 Mär 19 17:20:22 <+Rigtor>	it was as normal
2016 Mär 19 17:20:31 <+Rigtor>	well, normal, it went in line with winter
2016 Mär 19 17:20:40 <+Rigtor>	but here's the problem. The babbies is full of people like SDA
2016 Mär 19 17:20:45 <+Rigtor>	so we may see the ridiculous 8-6's still
2016 Mär 19 17:21:03 <+BGP>	People are underestimating the impact of small changes. We shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel.
2016 Mär 19 17:21:04 <+Tenko-G>	You make that sound like it's a bad thing.
2016 Mär 19 17:21:27 <+Megabeastage>	tbh Rigtor, SDA is going marginally less meme
2016 Mär 19 17:21:37 <+Rigtor>	do you believe that
2016 Mär 19 17:21:38 <+Megabeastage>	but I still expect obscene decisions
2016 Mär 19 17:21:40 <+Rigtor>	look in to your heart
2016 Mär 19 17:21:42 <+Rigtor>	and tell me you believe that
2016 Mär 19 17:21:51 <+Megabeastage>	I believe
2016 Mär 19 17:21:55 <+Megabeastage>	fak you
2016 Mär 19 17:21:57 <+Tenko-G>	Well it's like your life is sucked out as streamer when you have like 50 goals a day.
2016 Mär 19 17:22:08 <+Megabeastage>	#SENSIBLESDA
2016 Mär 19 17:22:18 <+Rigtor>	#JusticeForYaoi #WeWantElites
2016 Mär 19 17:22:29 <+[d]r[d]troit>	When you have multiple goalhorns looping, some multiple times, that gets a bit shitty
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2016 Mär 19 17:23:13 <+Rigtor>	my biggest concern with goalhorns is that the went from 30 seconds long in PES13 to 40 seconds in 14 to 50 in 15 to over a minute in 16
2016 Mär 19 17:23:16 <+Rigtor>	why is this happening
2016 Mär 19 17:23:21 <+Rigtor>	nobody likes replays in actual PES
2016 Mär 19 17:23:27 <+Rigtor>	is this an adaption for us? Does konami love us?
2016 Mär 19 17:23:39 <~DrBorisG>	they did see the final boss with the boats
2016 Mär 19 17:23:44 <+Megabeastage>	the goal replays are getting longer
2016 Mär 19 17:23:46 <~DrBorisG>	you have to wonder
2016 Mär 19 17:23:47 <+Megabeastage>	that's why
2016 Mär 19 17:23:48 <+Lazyturd>	i dunno
2016 Mär 19 17:24:04 <+Rigtor>	i found fanart of the boats and sent it to ved a few weeks ago
2016 Mär 19 17:24:04 <+BGP>	they do it for youtube people who make MLG goal compilations
2016 Mär 19 17:24:12 <+Megabeastage>	lelwot
2016 Mär 19 17:24:18 <+Megabeastage>	do you have the link still?
2016 Mär 19 17:24:39 <+Rigtor>	uhhh
2016 Mär 19 17:24:43 <~DrBorisG>	so is there anything else we need to throw on the table
2016 Mär 19 17:24:44 <+Rigtor>	you can't post images in irc can you (i don't normally do this shit)
2016 Mär 19 17:25:01 <@Lear>	No but you can link.
2016 Mär 19 17:25:09 <+Lazyturd>	Just puush it or something.
2016 Mär 19 17:25:16 <+BASED_GOD>	Not a damn thing 
2016 Mär 19 17:25:19 <+Hessen>	goalhorn time has nearly doubled which sucks i think
2016 Mär 19 17:25:25 <+Rigtor>	http://i.imgur.com/0wgDgHF.jpg
2016 Mär 19 17:25:29 <+Megabeastage>	I think, the prevalent ideas have been presented Boris
2016 Mär 19 17:25:34 <~DrBorisG>	well the host can always push start past the ingame PES replays and just use the user controllable one
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2016 Mär 19 17:25:42 <+Lazyturd>	Yeah, if goal amounts are to stay the same, we need to lessen goalhorn times.
2016 Mär 19 17:25:44 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I think we're missing the biggest idea
2016 Mär 19 17:25:47 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Why PES and not FIFA?
2016 Mär 19 17:25:53 <+Lazyturd>	>feefur
2016 Mär 19 17:25:54 <~DrBorisG>	so how can we narrow down what the best stat compression / medal change / defensive stat boost options are
2016 Mär 19 17:25:56 <+Hessen>	Or just skip the user controllable one. I like that one the lease
2016 Mär 19 17:26:01 <+BASED_GOD>	>FIFA
2016 Mär 19 17:26:09 <+Megabeastage>	>FIFA
2016 Mär 19 17:26:12 <+Megabeastage>	>feefur
2016 Mär 19 17:26:16 <+Megabeastage>	ISHYGDDT
2016 Mär 19 17:26:22 *	Q2 (Mibbit@9B5A770B.29D3F4A7.C05836FF.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 17:26:30 <+Rigtor>	let's have the cup on football manager
2016 Mär 19 17:26:40 <+BGP>	Is there a rough plan for when the summer cup is going to happen?
2016 Mär 19 17:26:41 <+Hessen>	IS THIS LIVE? ARE THESE REAL PLAYERS?
2016 Mär 19 17:26:45 <+Lazyturd>	Nope
2016 Mär 19 17:26:49 <+Lazyturd>	This is like wrasslin
2016 Mär 19 17:26:49 <+Megabeastage>	?live
2016 Mär 19 17:26:52 <+Megabeastage>	>real
2016 Mär 19 17:26:53 <+Lazyturd>	Everything is predetermined
2016 Mär 19 17:26:55 <+Rigtor>	trb cup when http://webmshare.com/eR6G5
2016 Mär 19 17:26:58 <+Lazyturd>	Nothing is real
2016 Mär 19 17:27:05 <+Lazyturd>	Your existance is a lie.
2016 Mär 19 17:27:51 <+bittenfeld>	make a google docs for tests so we can standardize the test spreadsheet
2016 Mär 19 17:27:58 <+Lazyturd>	^ that tbh
2016 Mär 19 17:28:03 <+Lazyturd>	It actually makes sense
2016 Mär 19 17:28:04 <+Megabeastage>	yeah
2016 Mär 19 17:28:11 <+JohnnyBravo>	could easily become a disaster but good idea
2016 Mär 19 17:28:12 <+Lazyturd>	(unlike 90% of what we said here)
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2016 Mär 19 17:28:31 *	SUPERtwinky (SUPERtwink@B30A7511.EDEAA7DB.7FF2BCE4.IP) has joined
2016 Mär 19 17:28:33 <+Megabeastage>	Also if we test, can we have a standard slew of tactics
2016 Mär 19 17:28:35 <+Lazyturd>	It requires trust
2016 Mär 19 17:28:35 <+BASED_GOD>	>cyclo's opinions matter 
2016 Mär 19 17:28:36 <~DrBorisG>	We can like wiki link it or something but I have zero google docs experience
2016 Mär 19 17:28:47 <+Megabeastage>	i.e. as specific set of teams/games
2016 Mär 19 17:28:47 <+Rigtor>	oh, I know, instead of testing a format change, the wrasslecup can be on SDA's patch
2016 Mär 19 17:28:54 <+Lazyturd>	and trust combined with 4chan hasent worked out well.
2016 Mär 19 17:28:54 <+JohnnyBravo>	I don't believe you can fix refs outside of a patch
2016 Mär 19 17:29:08 <+Hessen>	Making it completely open and editable to the public is a disaster waiting to happen
2016 Mär 19 17:29:19 <+bittenfeld>	We have to agree on the paramaeters of the tests. Are we testing with random conditions or all green, all orange etc?
2016 Mär 19 17:29:21 <+Rigtor>	would have to get the patch to me and tenk so I can make the save and he can use it without breaking the game, but uh
2016 Mär 19 17:29:23 <+Rigtor>	yeah
2016 Mär 19 17:29:26 <+BGP>	You cant really test multiple A positions. It's just something people will have available to them.
2016 Mär 19 17:29:48 <+JohnnyBravo>	you could run an invitational with it
2016 Mär 19 17:29:54 <+Megabeastage>	there's too many possibilities for that
2016 Mär 19 17:30:04 <+JohnnyBravo>	and see what people come up with
2016 Mär 19 17:30:15 <+Megabeastage>	some which are retarded and some that makes sense
2016 Mär 19 17:30:19 <+Rigtor>	i don't know if i can trust something SDA's australian semen covered yaoi hands have touched without it breaking my PES
2016 Mär 19 17:30:20 <+Rigtor>	but boy can we trry
2016 Mär 19 17:30:23 <+[d]r[d]troit>	I'd be up for running a test invitational on stream so someon who knows what they're looking for could se what they need to see tbh
2016 Mär 19 17:30:27 <+BGP>	which are the SDA changes again?
2016 Mär 19 17:30:34 *	Stefan_Burnett (Hiryuu@ABACA0F.B6E66996.43F9F159.IP) has left
2016 Mär 19 17:30:37 <@Lear>	He has a patch he found.
2016 Mär 19 17:30:42 <@Lear>	He wants to try that.
2016 Mär 19 17:30:51 <+[d]r[d]troit>	>yfw SDA's patch c-crashes the game
2016 Mär 19 17:31:01 <+Megabeastage>	this is how /y/ crashes pes
2016 Mär 19 17:31:02 <+Lazyturd>	of course it does
2016 Mär 19 17:31:05 <+JohnnyBravo>	YOU CAN'T SEE IT
2016 Mär 19 17:31:08 <+Lazyturd>	what the fuck are you expecting.
2016 Mär 19 17:31:18 <+Rigtor>	yeah if anyone has the link, i'm obviously not a manager so i can afford to fuck up my PES with a patch before spring
2016 Mär 19 17:31:38 <+BGP>	Some kind of bootleg 3rd party AI patch sounds like a terrible idea, IMO.
2016 Mär 19 17:31:38 <+bittenfeld>	Nay.
2016 Mär 19 17:31:42 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Uh oh, bors is retiring
2016 Mär 19 17:31:43 <+Megabeastage>	what have we got so far?
2016 Mär 19 17:31:45 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Press F
2016 Mär 19 17:31:48 <+Chance>	Sure
2016 Mär 19 17:31:51 <+Chance>	AHEM
2016 Mär 19 17:31:54 <+Chance>	imgay
2016 Mär 19 17:31:55 <+Chance>	thank you
2016 Mär 19 17:32:04 <+Lazyturd>	>big announcement
2016 Mär 19 17:32:08 <+Lazyturd>	PogcHAMP
2016 Mär 19 17:32:09 <+Rigtor>	the announcement is that after my contribution to this discussion i am unbanned congrats guys
2016 Mär 19 17:32:13 <+Rigtor>	welcome to the future
2016 Mär 19 17:32:16 <+BASED_GOD>	Fuck your annoncement 
2016 Mär 19 17:32:17 <+Lazyturd>	Oh boi
2016 Mär 19 17:32:22 <+JohnnyBravo>	bring back leddy
2016 Mär 19 17:32:23 <+BASED_GOD>	announcement
2016 Mär 19 17:32:25 <+Megabeastage>	aww shit
2016 Mär 19 17:32:30 <+Megabeastage>	DF mk 2 again
2016 Mär 19 17:32:32 <+Hessen>	congrats rigtor
2016 Mär 19 17:32:38 <+Rigtor>	it was worth a shot ;_;7
2016 Mär 19 17:32:52 <+Lazyturd>	#bringbackGB
2016 Mär 19 17:32:56 <+Chance>	#justiceforBetRigtor
2016 Mär 19 17:32:58 <+[d]r[d]troit>	Red Dragonfag
2016 Mär 19 17:33:08 <+JohnnyBravo>	#BringBackTorres #2stars
2016 Mär 19 17:33:15 <+Megabeastage>	#2stars
2016 Mär 19 17:33:17 <+bittenfeld>	Bring back Tottori
2016 Mär 19 17:33:21 <+[d]r[d]troit>	#BringBackBoris
2016 Mär 19 17:33:32 <+Lazyturd>	>totto-goes missing for a year
2016 Mär 19 17:33:38 <+Hessen>	#bringbacknickleddy #bringbackafwulcommentaryandliteralrigging
2016 Mär 19 17:33:42 *	DrBorisG removes voice from [d]r[d]troit BASED_GOD BGP
2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>	░░░░▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░░░░
2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>	░░░█▒▒░▄▄▀▀▀▀▄░▒░▄▄▄▄▄░▀▀▄░░░░
2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>	░░█▒░▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒░▀▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒█░░░░░
2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>	░█▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▄▒█░░░░ 
2016 Mär 19 17:33:49 <+Lazyturd>	▄▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒█░░ 
2016 Mär 19 17:33:50 *	DrBorisG removes voice from bittenfeld Chance DescendingBear
2016 Mär 19 17:33:50 <+Lazyturd>	█▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒░░░░░░░▒█
2016 Mär 19 17:33:52 <+Lazyturd>	█░▒▒▀▄▄▒░░░░░░▒▄▀▄▄░░░░░░▒█
2016 Mär 19 17:33:53 <+Lazyturd>	░█░▒▒▒▒▀▄▄▄▄▄███████▄▄▄▄▄▀
2016 Mär 19 17:33:55 <+Megabeastage>	oh shit we'e silenced
2016 Mär 19 17:33:55 <+Lazyturd>	░░█░▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▄▀▀████▀▀▄▀▒▒█
2016 Mär 19 17:33:57 <+Lazyturd>	░░░▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▀
2016 Mär 19 17:33:58 <+Megabeastage>	save us
2016 Mär 19 17:33:59 <+Megabeastage>	SAVE
2016 Mär 19 17:33:59 <+Lazyturd>	EBIN
2016 Mär 19 17:34:01 <+Megabeastage>	US
2016 Mär 19 17:34:01 <+JohnnyBravo>	benis
2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 <+Hessen>	b
2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 <+Hessen>	e
2016 Mär 19 17:34:04 *	DrBorisG removes voice from Lazyturd JohnnyBravo Hessen
2016 Mär 19 17:34:07 <+Megabeastage>	HELP
2016 Mär 19 17:34:08 <+Megabeastage>	H
2016 Mär 19 17:34:09 <+Megabeastage>	E
2016 Mär 19 17:34:10 <+Megabeastage>	L
2016 Mär 19 17:34:11 <+Megabeastage>	P
2016 Mär 19 17:34:15 *	DrBorisG removes voice from Marqod Megabeastage Rigtor
2016 Mär 19 17:34:21 *	DrBorisG removes voice from Tenko-G
2016 Mär 19 17:34:42 *	DrBorisG sets mode -m on #4chancup
2016 Mär 19 17:34:42 *	DrBorisG sets mode -N on #4chancup